[BBLISA] anybody doing IPv6 for real operations?/possible presentation topic

[Internaut at Large]

Greetings,

Let me ask again, up at the top, since you still can't seem to answer
the _relevant_ question.

What of your bells and whistles were left out of IPv6?

On Wed, 2010-03-17 at 14:34 -0400, Dean Anderson wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Mar 2010, Internaut at Large wrote:
> 
> > And ... large-scale systems administrators are usually ... that's
> > right, it starts with an "e" ... and ends with a "srs"  Do you need
> > more hints?
> 
> Actaully, large scale system administrators (LSSA) usually work at the
> ISPs or at the companies that run the servers that end-users want to
> use.  They (LSSA) provide the services to the end users.  Only at home,
> playing xbox live, or trying to get into their corporate environments
> remotely, do they find themselves as end-users.

Ahh ... yes, end users.  Like my colleagues at BBN S&T, any of the
universities I've worked for, any of the companies I've worked for, or
built computers for since, what, '79?  How about any of the convention
systems groups, like the groups that run the IETF, or Usenix, or IEEE,
or any of the other ones?

> > > Even with 2 million routes in the next generation of super routers,
> > > end users aren't going to get portable (ISP-independent) space,
> > > since every portable route must be in the global route table.
> > 
> > Why?  Seriously, why?  Because that's the way it's done now?
> 
> Because its going to be that way in 5 years. These maximums don't change
> very rapidly.

They have in the past, and they might in the future.  When did computer
people become so inflexible?  And how do you know what will be done in 5
years, unless, it's what you want to do, and are going to make sure only
your plan is accepted?

> But even at 4 million or 8 million or 16 million, it doesn't ever work
> for end users to have their own blocks. There will be 5 billion end
> users by that time.  Do you get it?  The scales don't match, and are off
> by a factor of 1000.

5 out of every 6 people in the world?  Hrm ...  Right now less than half
the people in the world don't have a regular food or water supply, much
less their own computer.  Interesting.

OK, that number is, indeed, misleading, because I manage several
1000-node compute farms. but still ... 

> If you were in charge of the internet, who would you suppose those slots
> will be given to?

If I were in charge of the Internet, I wouldn't have to suppose, I would
be making the decisions, now, wouldn't I?  And if I were, I would be
encouraging things to go to a more scalable solution, with routed hints,
rather than trying to maintain shortest path in every place, so the path
might not be shortest, to start with, but can find shorter paths, the
longer the exchange goes along.  But I'm not in charge, am I?  Are you?
You might claim to be, or speak, as if you claim to be, but you are
simply showing your own bias.

> The server companies who have some genuine interest
> in ISP independence? Or end-users like yourself? Hint: There could
> indeed be a lot of corruption involved, but it won't ever be the
> end-users.

You might be surprised.  Do you remember how the Internet-2 started?  By
end-users needing to connect.  Guess what, it's succeeding.  Think about
that.

> > -dkap, Wondering where "free as the internet" has gone to.
> 
> The internet never was free; it was just an illusion to end-users, like
> santa-claus to children.

Hrm ... it seemed much more free to me, when I was setting up, and
arranging for Fido-Net nodes.  Then it was free, when arranging for UUCP
hookups, person to person, sharing information and sharing connect.
Then I stepped back for a while, letting things go in the capable hands
of those who assured me it would be in good custody, and now I ended up
with you, Dean.  Who isn't maintaining the end-use well at all.

> First, it was government subsidized.

You missed Universities, Dean.  And those of us who were connecting up
BBSs and other folks, via phone lines, and UUCP networks.  But perhaps,
that was before your alleged time.

>  Then it
> was subsidized by corporations,

Ahh ... you mean "free" as in beer, not "free" as in speech.  The latter
is what I was talking about.

Oh, and BTW, the Internet wasn't called into being to keep ISPs in
business, it was for end-users to connect with each other.  Think about
it.

> then porn and spam/ads were added as the
> government dropped out.

Which, by logical extension means that the current ISPs are funded by
porn and spam?  Nice.  Even I'm not that cynical.

>   The small ISPs like AV8 are slowly disappearing
> like the small farm, because we (also like the small farm) can't achieve
> the economies of scale of comcast and verizon (very much like the big
> farms).

Or because you aren't providing the services that people are looking
for, or that we are moving to a place where your services aren't needed
anymore, because we got frustrated with being doled out only droplets of
honey, and we are used to being able to eat a whole meal.

> In the end, companies like AV8 will be renting our property (IP
> resources) to the big "farmers".  Maybe, if we're lucky, we'll find a
> niche like organic produce that enables us to charge more and stay
> viable.

And, here you show your ignorance of another field, vis farming.  It's
more likely (in both cases) that the big farmers will simply buy up your
property, if you were simply a poor farm.  Just as the big ISPs might
buy up your equipment at auction, but they won't bother renting from you
to keep you running, it's not cost effective.

You know what _is_ growing though?  Co-lo facilities.  Why?  Because
people want to run servers.  Think about it.

> > "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall
> > one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." -Edmund
> > Burke
> > 
> > "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do
> > nothing." (Translated from Russian, from S. Bondarchuck's adaptation
> > of) -L. Tolstoy, "War and Peace"
> 
> Very nice quotes.

Thank you.

>  There is indeed evil roaming the internet.

I know.  And I'm not E.L. Doctorow.

>  But you
> don't understand what it is or how it works.

To mis-quote a certain US Justice "I recognize it when I see it."

I do understand where some of it is, and I do admit I am puzzled how it
continues to "work" but I try my best to combat it, when I see it.
When I see someone smothering a perfectly good protocol, for no good
stated reason, one that will solve problems that exist, and are mandated
to be the wave of the future ... that is evil, indeed.  Hi Dean.

>   But, for the last 10+
> years, its been part of my job to expose it.

When did you become what you wish to expose?  And who made it your job?

> 		--Dean

-dkap